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- Winemaker Interview Volume 2 Littorai Part 2
Winemaker Interview Volume 2 Littorai Part 2
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We had the pleasure of interviewing Ted Lemon (Littorai) and Kazuto Chiba (La Hortensia) on June 15, 2010. We had lunch at Ekki Bar & Grill, a modern grill inside the Four Seasons Hotel Marunouchi that offers premium Japanese beef, the freshest seafood from the Tsukiji fish market, and high-quality vegetables from around Japan. We spoke to Ted and Kazuto about terroir in California, organic winemaking, and wine trends.
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Ted Lemon : I don't think that there is any doubt that there are vintages that are terroir driven and vintages that are not. So even in California, we would absolutely have vintages that are not terroir driven. That's part of the fun. A Premier Cru in Burgundy may lose out to a non-terroir driven vintage, but a Grand Cru may stand up to it.
Yoshi Takemura (iwine) : For your wines, Ted, would you put Hirsch in that Grand Cru category?
Ted : Absolutely, Hirsch and Thieriot, for sure. Thieriot, especially, has that identifiable character year in and year out. The Cerise, also, has that. The Havens, Summa… They all have it.
Kazuto Chiba : Summa?
Ted : Yes, Summa.
Kazuto : Is that the wine that Williams Selyem used to make?
Yoshi : Yes, very small amount, a cult wine, for sure.
Kazuto : So where is Cerise vineyard?
Ted : It's above Boonville, the warmer end of Anderson Valley, about 480ft, very steep, very rocky. Not classic Anderson Valley sandstone, it's partly serpentine so it's a very interesting mix of dark, clay soils over sandstone.
Ted : I can look at a vintage like 2003, and all the wines have that richness of fruit, softness, generosity. Is it my favorite Pinot Noir vintage? No, but it's good to drink them. They are fine. But compared to the 2004 vintage, 2003 is much less terroir driven. 
Yoshi : And even in those "non-terroir" vintages, the thought of blending hasn't crossed your mind at all?
Ted : For me, if you're a winemaker of any kind of experience, you've learned the humility that you don't know these things ahead of time. That, at the time you make the vintage, it's not that clear. You think you know, but life is full of surprises, and you can see the same thing happening in Europe, as well. The cinderella vintages that everybody at the time was not very excited about but five years later, everyone is like WOW!
Yoshi : True!
Ted : There is a point at which fruit maturity becomes so great, and the wine is all about fruit maturity, not about place. I remember tasting California wines in Burgundy in the early 80s, and these were wines from the 1970s. What was really exciting about those wines is that they had California fruit but also had finesse. They had what Europe NEVER has. So some of those wines form the 1970s were elegant, had fruit density, and complexity.
Yoshi : I've had 1970s Chardonnays from the likes of Stony Hill and Mayacamas, and they are just so delicious!
Yoshi : I think it's a shame to have you, Ted, and not talk about organic wines. I'm not experienced enough to claim that organic and conventionally made wines taste differently, so perhaps you can tell us a bit about organic wines and conventionally made wines. And most importantly, is it worth your time to do so?
Ted : Our disclaimer is that we don't certify anything as being organic. I do it because it's better for the future of the land and for the people who work in the vineyards. I encourage people to come visit us and see the farm. I'll be happy to give a tour, and they can decide after they've had the tour. But the bottom line is what's in the glass. There as too many organic or biodynamic wines that are just as bad as conventionally made wines. My personal view is, if a winemaker is trying to make a wine that speaks of a place, it's only logical that one uses organic materials. The other part of it is that we need to stop putting additives in the vineyards. Vines treated with organic materials tend to suffer more in the spring but by the end of the year, it's much healthier than chemically treated vines. It holds its leaves better and longer into the fall, because the vines establish a "natural" relationship with the environment. I've told my growers that we don't care about certification but to be as organic as possible. The only part of Hirsch that is farmed organic is from the Littorai section.
Yoshi : Ah, that's interesting.
Ted : Yes, and with Charles Heintz, the Littorai section and a few more rows.
Yoshi : I didn't realize you actually had the same rows of vines in each vineyard every year. Kinda like Burgundy!
Ted : Absolutely. This is the same seven rows of Charles Heintz since 1994. I wouldn't do it any other way. It's essential!
Ted : Regarding biodynamics, in 1998, the owners of Mays Canyon said to me that they were ready to try biodynamics. I said, "Me, too." So in 1999, Mays Canyon went biodynamic. I knew it was a completely different paradigm, so it was a new methodology to learn. Whether it would work or not, I didn't know. But I was fine either way. I wanted to try something that was truly different. So when we planted the Haven's vineyard, we did it completely biodinamically. When we did the long-term lease on Thieriot, we did it organically. Since that time, everything we do is biodynamic. And all we do is to add compost to the vineyards. I'm a farmer. I can see what's going on in the vineyards. I walk out there and I see how the plants are doing. That's all I need to know. I have friends in California who get very exorcised over it and feel like this who biodynamic thing is all voodoo. I tell them, if it's voodoo, how come it's working? We get good yields, fruit ripens, I only hedge once, and I don't have any laterals. There's no voodoo in that! So we've been very, very happy with our biodynamic approach. 
Yoshi : It's clearly more work for you than the conventional method, right?
Ted : Yes. I think it costs us around 1,000 dollar more per acre per year. That's full-on biodynamics. That's making your own preparations, doing companion plantings, harvesting all your own preparation plans, the whole thing. It's fun! Heidi and I are really enjoying doing it, and the crew loves it. That matters to me. I want them to feel like they're working in a healthy field. I don't want them to come back to the winery stinking of horrible chemicals. That is NOT ok. Our techniques, I know, is very unusual but I've come to be very comfortable with it.
Yoshi : It works, obviously!
Ted : Also, there is a fundamental truth that is expressed in the old saying that the most important fertilizer is the footsteps of the farmers. What this means is that the farmers' presence in the vineyard is as important as any fertilizers. By being present farmers can see which plants need attention and are diseased. The other aspect of that old saying is that the farmer is bringing the spiritual presence to the farm. By walking through the farm, it's a meditation in and of itself. Agriculture is a human undertaking, it's not nature.
Yoshi : Have you tasted any Japanese wines?
Ted : Not outside of Sake. But I would like to do that sometime.
Kazuto : It's getting better, though.
Yoshi : It is getting better!
Ted : It's a really tough climate, right?
Kazuto : It's humid and rains a lot! A lot of rot in the vineyards.
Yoshi : I always thought that the problem with Japanese wines is not really the quality but more the price at which they are released to the public. If there is an 80 dollar bottle of French wine next to an 80 dollar bottle of Japanese wine, I'm always going to buy the French wine.
Yoshi : So do you still drink Burgundies often, Ted?
Ted : If my budget would let me. I do have a cellar at home, but my work at Littorai is not a second career, if you know what I mean. And I'm more interested in other things now, too. It's sad to say but the great classics of Europe bore the heck out of me now!
Kazuto : I'm so glad that many Burgundy producers are getting back to that "traditional" style. For example, Dominique Laurent, Denis Mortet, Bernard Dugat-Py, they were more like California Pinot Noir. I recently tasted a Gevrey Chambertin 04 from Denis Mortet, and it was very classic in style!
Ted : I think Perrot-Minot is also similar and very big in style.
Kazuto : Yes.
Ted : I'm excited about what Huet is doing in Vouvray. Also, grower-Champagnes . 
Yoshi : I don't like those "special cuvees" from Chateauneuf du Pape. Often, I find them too extracted and high in alcohol. I much rather prefer the classic, traditional cuvees.
Ted : There are some really interesting whites being made in Central Coast from Mediterranean type varieties. They are mostly tank fermented, and the wines see no new oak at all. Picpoul, Vermentino, Roussanne, and Grenache Blanc. are all very interesting wines. My favorite is Unti Vineyards.
Kazuto : Most wine drinkers seem interested in trying varietals other than Chardonnay.
Ted : And that's a good thing, I think.
Kazuto : What's great about California wines is its diversity, but most Japanese wine drinkers associate California wine with big, rich and fruity wines. That's a problem.
Ted : To me Chardonnay is generally a variety not suited for Napa Valley. I'm sure there are some wines that are made well and age well. But in general, it's not the right climate for the variety. So varieties like Roussanne are no brainers!
Yoshi : I agree, I'm not a big fan of white Rhone varietals to begin with, but there are some producers in Napa who are making fantastic whites.
Ted : I'll say that a lot of modern Bordeaux doesn't interest me whatsoever.
Kazuto : I agree.
Ted : I feel the same about Port, too. Starting with the 2000 vintage, there are a lot of sappy Port out there.
Yoshi : Do you think Bordeaux and Port will calm down in, say, 20 years, though?
Ted : No I don't.
Yoshi : Not even like 2005 Bordeaux, 20 years down the road?
Ted : No. In great vintages, mother nature grabs the steering wheel and she runs the show. So the wines decide for themselves. It doesn't matter what you do in the cellar. But outside of that, I'm not convinced that they'll calm down.
Michael Khoo (iwine) : How about in terms of preference for the consumers in the US? Do you see people coming back more towards the elegant wines?
Ted : It's really hard to say. I can say that there is increased interest in those elegant wines, but big and bold still sells.
Wines Mentioned in this Interview |
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